Alright…I had long hair and leather jackets all through High School, and into the early part of my working years, so by no means do I think all people who don`t conform or are ‘bad’.

By all means, if you want to express yourself, you should be free to do so in anyway possible that doesn`t harm others.

However, I do think it is a bit disingenuous of the ‘goths’ who have been commenting in the paper/etc to say that “this isn`t what Goth is about, Goth didn`t cause this, etc, etc”. The fact is, a huge number of the “goth” websites, etc that I visited when poking around the accused’s websites specifically said that the person was into blood, death, destruction, etc, etc. To me it seems silly that so many people are willingly putting this on websites, and then claiming later on that it has absolutely nothing to do with the crimes involved here.

It absolutely had a negative influence on these two, and while not the only factor, I would definitely list it as a contributing factor.

Are all goths murderers? No. If you get an already somewhat unbalanced person and expose them to these messages will it hurt - yes.

From what I have learned of the “goth” culture (which I had friends in back in high school - oh so many years ago), it has EVERYTHING to do with blood, death and destruction…it is rooted in Satanism.

Does this mean that everykid who dresses goth, IS goth? Nope. I’d say many of these kids/youth who choose to dress that way do so for the look. It is how they choose to represent themselves. The only dangerous part is that they get labeled and may even start to delve into the actual “goth rituals and lifestyle” out of curiousity.

Just because a kid dresses like a “jock” does not mean he/she is a jock. A guy friend of mine from high school was in the “jock crowd” throughout our high school years. He couldn’t even through a football!! Nobody cared though, because the way he dressed and acted allowed him to fit in with their group.

Is goth a bad influence? If it goes further than the way they dress, I think so. But that is why I think we have to stop judging those who venture that way, and start living a life ourselves that is worthy of copying. As adults and older youth, we need to show that we can be accepting and loving of ANY culture so these kids don’t continue feeling so isolated and judged, thereby sinking further into life choices that make them feel comfortable in negative ways, because they are accepted in those venues.

Its wrong to teach to accept ANY culture. I realize its a slippery slop but there has to be lines drawn for what is acceptable and what isn’t.

embracing death, blood, gore, murder, satanism - I dont know that its neccesary for people to cope with high school without killing themselves…I am pretty sure that there are probably healthier ways to cope that dont involve devil worship, but maybe I am too old now and I dont “get it” anymore.

You’ll take death and Satan over cell phones and picket fences anyday? Seems like a very, reasonable and well thought out position.

I think I can make a solid case against death, murder and devil worship if I need to, but I would be interested to hear you list how cellphones, picket fences and SUV’s are a greater evil then ACTUAL EVIL - do enlighten us.

Fat Elvis, I see what you’re saying, I guess I didn’t explain it the way I was thinking. I didn’t mean that we need to “agree” with every culture, my intention was to say that it is the “people” that we need to show unconditional caring for. I’ve never seen anyone change their way of thinking because people were rude and called them names or judged them. I’ve seen the opposite where they withdraw more and actually begin to despise those who judge them. We are not all going to agree on a lifestyle, but we should be able to get along in a mature manner. Some of the kids my kids spend time with are not people I would chose for myself. But because I make the effort to be kind to them, some of them have opened up and I got a look at the real person behind the facade. Does that make better sense?

There is some good points in here. I personally was never “Goth”, but I was pretty into the 90’s Punk/Grunge Scene. So yeah, I looked a lot different than your “typical” kid and all that. That sort of scene was very into music, so it did happen that social circles crossed once in a while with crowds that could be labeled “Goth”. Most of the people I knew who dressed in black and were really into Anne Rice novels and junk were really pretty good people, maybe just introverts mostly that felt a little different than thier peers. They just were part of a crowd that looked and dressed a certain way and needed to fit in. They chose that scene to find some commonalities with peers. I mean, think of all the stupid “mainstream” trends that have happened that made no sense (wearing leg warmers in the 80’s!?!). People would not normally do that type of thing, except that their peers were doing it. Of course, there were those who were VERY into the Goth scene, and could be quite creepy. Probably they were disturbed to a certain point. I don’t think Goth is a “cause” of problems, but it may very well be that kids with existing problems choose Goth as it symbolizes thier issues somehow.

Now, I think everything is a question of degrees. It’s a problem when anyone gets too radical with something. The same goes for “hip hop” kids that go all “gangsta” and kill people.

I think the issue that needs scrutinizing is not Goth style or culture itself, but why kids choose that as an expressions, and more importantly, why they would take it to the most radical extent (ie. Vamparism, Human Sacrifice, etc.).

Funguy has some interesting comments on goth in the forums…
http://www.medhatblog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=51

Lore

thats kinda the irony of the goth culture isnt it? they dress that way obviously drawing attention to themsleves just so they can complain about the attention they get. I think your experaince shows that bold individual is out seeking that kind of attention.

The other irony about the goth culture is they want to be different - yet they all dress the same.

In all eras and all times the older generation claims the younger generation is out of control, so I dont think thats any different, but what IS different in my view is that there are so very few consequences for lots of youth today. Ask any junior high or high school teacher - its not that kids in my generation were incapable of talking to our teachers/adults that way - its that we wouldnt have GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT - as seems to be the case now.

A teen boy yelled at me “Do you like being stared at?”

Response: “Kind of a bold statement from someone who isn’t supposed to give a sh*t about anything. Besides… if I wanted to be stared at, I would dress like a goth!”

Goth isnt a bad thing, its just a fashion or a fad that teens find interesting,just becuase they dress in black doesnt meen they are goth! now stop with the whole goth thing!

thehatrox

If you define Goth as a fashion statement or fad, then I think most people agree with you, but where do you put all the dark poetry and satanism and gore and death part of the goth movement - it isnt clothing. I am curious how you define the goth - does it include that dark element, vampirefreaks.com part - where does all of that fit in?

i thought about this more last night and it totally reminded me of when i was a teen and any music i listened to that had a heavy beat, my mom said it was satanic. it drove me insane! if she found out i was listening to ozzy ozbourne she would have a total fit and try to destroy my tapes (tapes?? omg im old) because her church told her musicians like that were evil and satanic. she didnt give me a chance to express myself and to learn about myself, she tried to control everything - which only led to more rebellion. music and clothing should not be linked to satanism, its up to each individual for how they react to it and what they do with their life. some people take it to extremes, some dont. not everyone should be lumped together.

i actually chose not to dress ‘goth’ or punk when i was a teen. no one could believe the music i liked to listen to and looked at me strangley when they found out i read all the anne rice novels and loved them. to them, i didnt ‘look the part’, but its all up to us to decide how we want to dress and act. some people are like lost souls and grab onto anything they can find that makes them fit in and if they are unstable, it can go too far. some of the goth people i know who ARE into blood and gore and make macabre websites still wouldnt hurt a fly im sure. talking to them outside the goth culture, they are regular normal people just like everyone else. i dont know why some go too far but its certainly not just people who dress in black and listen to heavier music, its ridiculous to dump people all together into one bunch.

I’m inclined to agree with Tortured Artist here.

I child will seek out other people and the choice of lifestyle that suits his/her personality and it depends on how far over the edge that person gets into it. Goth is no different then Gangsta crap or any other form of expression that young kids today leech on to. It is hard enough for kids today to find where they fit in and how to cope with the ever changing rules and expectations.

This generation that grew up in daycares or in front of tv’s because the parents were too busy seem to be having a lot of troubles finding their place in this world and how to deal with the stresses of everyday life.

I dont think how someone dresses has any influence on their behavior. The thing I find funny - sure our parents thought heavy metal music was satanic, when in fact it was not. Not to judge the next generation or anything but as it relates to the darker elements of goth subculture…

Worshipping satan really is satanic, in fact its the very definition of it. seeking evil, blood, gore and death is unhealthy no matter what clothes you wear.

As an “old” guy I will admit that clothes are just clothes…you shouldnt judge children on the clothes they wear -

BUT I also think its irresponsible to dismiss these much more disturbing elements of the goth sub culture as harmless youthfull rebellion. that stuff is messed up.

as for poor old ozzy, i saw one of his shows when he caught his son smoking pot and he freaked out. he gave the kids a lecture and stood up and said ‘look at me! do you want to be like me? i cant even talk, i cant walk’ and a bunch of stuff like that. he is well aware that his past exploits have ruined his body and health and i thought it was good to see him trying to get that point across to them.

okay folks… this is going to be long and hard. (and sadly far to late to do any good)

goth 1 - a genre of music formed as an offshoot of the late 70’s punk movement, “joy division” (later “New Order” after the lead singer committed suicide) along with “The Bauhaus” are considered amongst some of the original goth rock bands. it often evokes bleak, lugubrious imagery. and yes folks, the cure are considered goth, listen to “lullaby” sometime and you tell me thats not a sightly twisted song. as well one of the more popular and well known though not as goth bands is “depeche mode” I wonder how many of you listened to them.

so simply put, musically, Goth = Glam + Punk - Fun

2- A performer or follower of this style of music.(now this one has changed over time, it’s much more expansive but the same could be said for any sub-culture)

it’s not a fad (unless fad’s last over a quarter century), and it’s not entirely a “style”

this is not to say that it focussed on death solely, but it would obviously have that included in it’s many subjects.

It’s finding humor in the macabre, or maybe not being “freaked out” or “afraid” of death as it seems most people are. it’s not about religion (ex. satanism), its not about blood letting, or vampirism, though many people who are of the goth persuasion also enjoy those things on the side. that doesn’t make them indicative of the culture, simply commonalities.

if someone is a satanist, they can be a Satanist who is into goth culture, or who drives a BMW and has a white picket fence.

it’s hard to explain what draws everyone to it, and usually you can tell the difference not only in how they dress but how they act and who they associate with. not so much in medicine hat where anyone who doesn’t fit into the norm seems to have to scrap together with anyone and everyone who is even slightly outcast so as to have some sense of community.

basically if you actually care to learn something about this given sub culture, give this a read http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm

and no… it will not warp you into a baby eating satanist.

Many of the goths I know are just as happy or miserable as many of the “normal” people i know, the only difference is their choices in personal style, outlook on certain things, and music.

as for the girl in the CD store… I’m sure she’s handling it quite well, though i haven’t talked to her since this whole things started. likely a little frustrated, though she’s used to people staring at her.

and ozzy… well I think he’s doing pretty good for someone who should be dead just a few times over.. acid every day for two years strait? that’s admirable… but stupid. Any kid who would follow that example has a million other bad examples to follow if you shield them from ozzy.

and finally, most “mature” goths I know scoff at vampire freaks as being sold out and full of “spookie kids”

I have a lot more to say but as i said at the very beginning, i think i’m getting into this a little late to make anything noticeable.

I really love how “Anonymous” from entry number 26 put “Ozzie Ozbourn”.. That makes me laugh.. Anyways…

I think most of the comments on the Goth culture is right. However, I would like to say, that Goth is not rooted from Satanism. From what I know about the Goth culture, the 2 are very different. Satanism is not all, “HAIL SATAN..Lets all go sacrifice a being” This is very much not what Satanism is.

Satanists do not believe in any higher being.. be it God or Satan. And I am not going to get into the details of Satanism. You can do your own research on this topic.. And I highly recommend you do.. No one ever seems to get it right..

I portray Goth as how a person feels, what goes on within in themself, and is how one decides to express their feelings. Not simply how you dress. I know many who do not dress in black, but have come to the conclusion they are gothic, simply based on how they act, how they feel, and what they believe in.

Jasmine and Jeremy expressed Goth differently than many. I think that being “Goth” had nothing to do with the fact that they murdered. If they were not a stereotypical “Goth”, i do feel they would have done what they did anyways. It is all in how they feel inside. They chose to express their feelings by dressing in the Goth fashion, etc. Minus all the makeup, the black, and the music, you are left with a stereotypical “Normal” person.. but they are still feeling the same things they felt before.

On the side note, there are many who do dress in black, and are gothic.. Obviously.. duh. And I know for a fact, that those people, are the MOST understanding, accepting and nciest people in the world. Jeremy was a nice kid.. depsite his problems..and DO NOT THINK I AM DEFENDING HIS ACTIONS.. I am not.

Anyways.. I am done.

nonny mouse… you “good kids” who don’;t dress all goth, are just as bad and messed up most of the time.

I think it was about 2 months ago 3 kid from south side edmonton went to a party in one of the surrounding cities, got kicked out, returned a while later and ended up killing a kid. the media died right away, know why? because it didn’t have something “different” you could smear all over the front page.

same with the kids who killed a guy on the public transit bus in edmonton not long ago, was all crazy for a few days then BAM nothing, because it didn’t have something “different” to over ad over again, like that they were “goth”. they were just your typical SHIT HEAD kids.

and you don’t like them getting all the attention from the media? you’re likely just jealous, and you forget the main credo of the media “bad news sells”. they can’t market a litter of puppies on the front page nearly as easily as a man killing said litter of puppies, now that to them is front page news. that sells papers.

don’t blame the goths for all this attention because more then likely, it’s annoying the hell out of anyone who isn’t just some spotlight seeking attention whore. (and no, just because they dress “differently” does not mean all goths are looking to be noticed)

“Nonny Mouse”.. all I have to say to you is.. WTF?!

Your jealous because all of these “goth” kids are getting attention.. can I ask why?? They are getting attention for all the wrong reasons.. it is a constant goth bash in the papers everyday because “one of them” murdered their family.. And here you are saying u want sum more attention? If you know ANYTHING about the media you would get why the stupid fucking press is fucking creaming their pants over this shit. They hit the jackpot on this one.

“Good kids” who “treat their parents with respect” is good and all.. but lets get real for a second. Who wants to hear about a good kid doing nothing wrong? I dont.. simply bcuz this isnt reality, everyone has problems. So please, be quiet.. you have nothing of intelligence to add to this topic of conversation.. You are just another person who doesnt understand “losers like Goths”..

Dick-fucking-head

Oh, one more thing.. How was R.i.i.t.m being “hateful”? Hes speaking the truth, and its apparent that YOU are the one who doesnt understand more than half of our teen population. Do you think that the goths, who are the most introverted people, and the nicest at that, do you think they want this attention. For half of them, what Jasmine and Jeremy did has NOTHING to do with them.. yet, they are stuck in the limelight, getting bashed for the lifestly they live.. its complete bullshit.

BAH!

Clearly, AHatTeen, if you are one, and not some 49 yr old bald fat guy, you are full of shit.

Clearly, you have a shitty life if you think everyone is full of problems like you clearly have, hate-boy.

Maybe when you grow up you will understand the world. You want people to be openminded, but you are proving your closemindedness.

Now be a good boy and kiss the goth ass you are clearly envying. Go squeeze your zits, jack to Sears catalogues, and continue on with the friends you don’t have.

LOSER!

You too, anyone who disagrees with me!

If you take what I am saying seriously, you clearly suck. I am baiting you morons!

Dumbasses.

I have to say that I would have to agree with R.i.i.t.m. and aHatTeen… there is no such thing as bad PR… the worse it is the better it is.. BAD NEWS SELLS.. no one wants to hear how well someone is doing they want to hear about the deviant acts of those who fit the deviant appearance.

If I might add A Nonny Mouse… you are just super at attacking these people for their opinions and call them names.. yea real mature! My guess is you yourself are one of those “know-it-all” teens, how the hell can you possibly know whether or not AhatTeen is or is not a teen? Come on.. innocent until PROVEN guilty. You my friend have PROVEN yourself to be the one who has nothing intelligent to add to this topic..